His Holy Space Debate
The elimination of schisms is always the desired outcome of dialogue between Christian brothers and sisters. Such elimination should not occur at the expense of the Truth however. One individual on His Holy Space left me three replies in video format. The debate is on a group devoted to "hardcore discussions" of Christianity (it's called "Mars Hill Discussion Group)" and two threads in particular, "the 3rd use of the law" and "once saved always saved" generated some intense discussions between myself and a man named Dave.
Dave believes several things that have come to light. He does believe in the Holy Trinity, but denies the 3 uses of the law because he says Scripture doesn't break the law up like that. He says that because Christ is the propitiatory sacrifice for sins, we are born both sinful and saved. We merely need to repent, not of our sins, but of our unbelief. He effectively then says that the law has no purpose in the life of a Christian because we are no longer under the law (although I keep pointing out to him that as Christians we would want to obey the law out of love for Christ..."if you love Me you will keep My commandments," but realizing that we are under grace. Listen carefully in the videos to how he describes "grace." The context is those passages which say that people have "fallen from God's grace" in the New Testament.
While I know strife and enmity are not our goals. I wonder how much of what we are talking about could be easily fixed with a few passages of Scripture I am just not catching. Pray for unity of the brotherhood.
Dave's first video:
Dave's second video:
Dave's third video:
Just leave your thoughts with me...or take a stop by the group. Lutheran theology usually does not sit well with Christians, and if you can tell, Dave interprets it to be works righteousness...perhaps I stated our doctrine in such a way as to indicate to him that it is works righteousness and legalism....though I usually double check for obvious mistakes like that...it could have happened. The difference could also be language. Again, pay attention to what he says about grace...is it really grace if you have to work or persevere to obtain it?
Dave believes several things that have come to light. He does believe in the Holy Trinity, but denies the 3 uses of the law because he says Scripture doesn't break the law up like that. He says that because Christ is the propitiatory sacrifice for sins, we are born both sinful and saved. We merely need to repent, not of our sins, but of our unbelief. He effectively then says that the law has no purpose in the life of a Christian because we are no longer under the law (although I keep pointing out to him that as Christians we would want to obey the law out of love for Christ..."if you love Me you will keep My commandments," but realizing that we are under grace. Listen carefully in the videos to how he describes "grace." The context is those passages which say that people have "fallen from God's grace" in the New Testament.
While I know strife and enmity are not our goals. I wonder how much of what we are talking about could be easily fixed with a few passages of Scripture I am just not catching. Pray for unity of the brotherhood.
Dave's first video:
Dave's second video:
Dave's third video:
Just leave your thoughts with me...or take a stop by the group. Lutheran theology usually does not sit well with Christians, and if you can tell, Dave interprets it to be works righteousness...perhaps I stated our doctrine in such a way as to indicate to him that it is works righteousness and legalism....though I usually double check for obvious mistakes like that...it could have happened. The difference could also be language. Again, pay attention to what he says about grace...is it really grace if you have to work or persevere to obtain it?
posted by Chris | 11:06 PM
1 Comments:
Thank you for posting these. I've been involved in a Christian book club [in real life] where many of the same issues have been discussed, and I've faced some of the same communication roadblocks.
I think Dave must have a different definition of "grace" than Lutherans do.
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